How to Get a Full-Time Job in the Fiber Arts Industry | Podcast Episode #100

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Curious about how to get a job in fiber arts?

Before I started B.Hooked, I thought working in the fiber arts industry was only a dream. I remember thinking that doing what you love and making a living doing it was a fantasy that only the luckiest of people had for real life. But through a string of unfortunate events and a TON of support from my husband, I was given the opportunity to give it a try. What I found was that it is completely possible to turn your hobby into a career and there’s no reason to hate what you do for a living anymore.

Special Guest

I’m joined by Lee from Coco Crochet Lee to talk about how to get a job in fiber arts, what fields are available, and how you can make your “break” into it. Lee has had several jobs within the fiber arts industry and she is a wealth of knowledge. If you are ready to turn your hobby into a career, listen up!

Episode Details

Brittany:
Hey there, and welcome to episode 100 of the BHooked podcast. You have no idea how good it feels to say those words. The BHooked Podcast now has 100 episodes and man, was that a challenge and a feat for me.

Now, as you know, the BHooked Podcast is really more of a passion project, but what has really fueled me through these first 100 episodes is you and knowing that what I’m doing is directly helping you. And I will continue to keep that my motivator moving into 2019 and the next 100 episodes. So check—cheers, my friend, to 100 episodes and hundreds more.

All right, now on to today’s show. Today, I am really excited to chat about working in the fiber arts industry. Now I brought on a guest who has been here before. Her name is Leigh and she runs the website Coco Crochet Leigh. She has some of her own designs and she does a lot of different things too that she’ll mention as we get to chatting.

But she is the perfect person to talk about working in the fiber arts industry because she has done a lot of different things for a long time. So it doesn’t matter what your specialty is. Maybe you want to be a designer. Maybe you love social media and that’s sort of your jam. There is a place for you in the fiber arts industry if this is where you want to be. It doesn’t take a special person. It just takes a motivated person who knows what they want and they go after what they want.

That was my goal today—to highlight what you can do in the fiber arts industry and how you can get there. Are you up for the challenge? I hope you are.

So as we get into my chat with Leigh, there are a few things that I’ll mention in the show notes page. And really quick, the show notes page for this episode is bhooked.com/100. bhooked.com/100. All right, let’s get to it.

Leigh, welcome back to the show. It’s such a pleasure to have you here, my friend.

Lee: 3:03
Thank you so much for having me, Brittany. It’s a pleasure. It is always so much fun chatting with you. I really enjoy our time together and being able to meet you in person in Chicago. That was just so much fun.

Brittany: 3:12
We did. And little known fact. So a lot of my listeners know I was doing like my first keynote presentation or just my first presentation in general. And I did so much research. I’ve listened to so many podcasts and watched so many videos about speaking.

And one of the similarities I found was that you should always find your one person in the audience that is just very into what you’re talking about, just has like a sweet expression and just makes you feel better. You were totally that person for me. So I have to say thank you for that.

Was I actually? That’s amazing. You really were. There were so many familiar faces and it was just… I just gravitated towards you because you were just engaged and you gave me great feedback and that really fueled me. And I probably couldn’t have gotten through everything without you.

Lee: 4:10
I didn’t know that. And I appreciate you saying that so much. I really enjoyed your speech and it had a lot of, um, informative information that I was able to take away and put into practice. So I really enjoyed everything that you talked about and you did an amazing job.

Brittany: 4:27
Oh, well, thank you so much. That’s really cool. I just had to share that little story with you. But, you know, for the listeners who may not know who you are, let’s just do a brief introduction. Tell me a little bit about you and what you do in the fiber arts industry.

Lee: 4:45
Sure. So my name is Lee and my business handle is Coco Crochet Lee. Coco is actually a nickname that we call my son Conan. So when I originally started my business side of my work, he was my little inspiration, my little baby. And so we put it all kind of together—his name, Crochet, and then my name at the end.

Although when I do meet people in person, a lot of the times they actually think my name is Coco as well. And so I’ve been just kind of going with it. So if they say, oh, are you Coco? I say, yes, I am.

Brittany: 5:23
Yeah. It’s always good to have a good story like that, though.

Lee: 5:26
Yeah. And so right now I am working with a company in the crafting industry named Annie’s. And Annie’s is kind of like a Disney of the crafting industry world. They have an umbrella of all kinds of different platforms and magazines and knitting and crochet and that. So I work for them doing social media and product lines for designing. And I also run my own business as well.

Brittany: 5:57
Very cool. So you’re a busy lady sounds like.

Lee: 6:01
Yes, in a good way.

Brittany: 6:03
Yeah. So you’ve been in the industry for quite a while, haven’t you?

Lee: 6:08
I have. For the past, I’d say, nearly four years now, I’ve been working in the crafting industry behind the scenes doing social media and tech editing and Facebook advertising and blogging. And it’s just been in the past, I’d say, year and a half that I’ve been kind of putting my own face out there as a maker rather than a behind-the-scenes professional.

Brittany: 6:35
Yeah, and it’s really cool to see you making that transition too. So sort of taking everything that you’ve learned over the years and applying it to like your passion. But there’s really nothing like having your own brand. So being able to share that is I’m sure so rewarding for you.

Lee: 6:53
And also a little bit scary, but in a good way. So I’ve been in the past year, I’ve been on a PBS public television show with Annie’s and doing their creative studio, which is all filming. And just to have people approach me and say, oh, I watched you on TV today. I’ve been to the post office to mail something and the post office clerk had watched me on television before coming into work that day. So it’s a bit kind of scary at the same time.

Brittany: 7:29
Yeah, it’s so funny too. I know there have been a couple occasions where I have seen the show on Saturday morning and I’ll tell my husband, “That’s Lee! I talked to her like the other day on the podcast.” It’s a little bit of that starstruck moment.

Lee: 7:44
It’s something that I’m not quite used to yet. And we will be filming again in March for the next season. And it just never really—that excitement and that sense of pride that you are doing something that, you know, obviously I feel really passionately about—it never really goes away. It’s something that… it’s just a very special experience.

Brittany: 8:09
Yeah, I can’t even imagine. So you have been in it for a while. You’ve done a lot of different things. I’m curious, what is your take on what it’s like to work in the industry? Like, is it all glamorous, like somebody on the outside might think? Or is it completely different than what someone would expect?

Lee: 8:30
So that’s a great question. And if you are looking to do behind-the-scenes industry work for the crafting community, it definitely doesn’t have a lot of glamour involved. And it is a lot of long hours and a lot of computer work. And that’s something that I myself am inclined to enjoy.

I went to university for visual arts and communications. And communications is centered around the advertising industry. So for me, long hours in front of a computer, tech editing a pattern or blogging is a little bit of a comfortable place. And so for me, actually, doing the Coco Crochet Lee version of my work where I’m out in the public sphere and putting pictures out there and being on film is a little bit harder and a little scarier.

So it just depends on what your comfort zone is. And I tend to dabble back and forth between the private industry work and the public industry work, and sometimes when one is overwhelming, I jump back into the other.

Brittany: 9:44
Go back in your comfort zone. I found that to be the same too. It always seems like when you start something new, you have that overwhelming fear like, oh, this is a little bit new to me. I don’t really know if I’m going to be good or if it’s going to work. But that’s usually my driving force to keep going forward.

And eventually, over time, that fear totally subsides. I used to be terrified of filming. I would turn the camera on. I would say “um” all the time. I would stumble on my words. I hated the sound of my voice, so I would cringe when I would edit the videos. And I just didn’t let that stop me. I just kept pressing on.

And now I don’t have any of those feelings at all. I’m perfectly comfortable talking. And then when I started the podcast, it was like totally new to be just sitting in front of a microphone and talking to nothing, basically. I mean, I can hear you on the other side, or if I’m recording, then of course I don’t hear anybody. I’m just talking to myself. And that was a whole new different kind of fear for me. But I pressed on and I’m not scared at all anymore.

So I feel like when you see those trends, it’s good to just power through it because eventually it won’t be scary anymore.

Lee: 11:08
I completely agree. And one of the kind of methods that I use in any line of my work is just kind of taking the mindset of “why not me,” first and foremost. You know, if you are interested in tech editing or if you’re interested in blogging or any of the kind of technical aspects of the maker community, whether it’s for your own business or for a company…

If you’re passionate about something like that, then why not you? If you have the skill set and you have the mindset to put them into action, then you definitely… it’s one of those things where you have to kind of get over the fear and just decide that it’s your turn.

Brittany: 11:54
I completely agree. I felt that way too. I just wholeheartedly believe that if you want to do something, like you said, why not me? Why not you? And then just do it. And you know what? At the end of the day, if it doesn’t work or if you decide that you don’t like it as much as you thought you would, then oh well—you learned something from that experience and then you just move on and find something else to pursue.

Lee: 12:19
That’s actually something that’s happened to me in the past. I used to be in charge of really epic and in-depth Facebook ad campaigns for a certain company. And there would be dozens of variations on a single ad where maybe the picture is different or the wording in the advertisement is different just by one word for 12 different advertisements.

And running these campaigns, I was quite good at them, but I just didn’t enjoy it. Just the amount of time. And, you know, then once the ad is done—say it was for Boxing Day—Boxing Day’s over and your whole ad campaign is just done.

So it was one of those jobs where I did decide to give it a go and say the why not me. And I was quite good at it. But it just—some things are not for you. You don’t have to do every single thing, even if, you know, even if you’re good at it, it doesn’t…

Absolutely! Here’s your text broken into readable paragraphs with speaker names and timestamps intact:

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Brittany: 13:12
…mean that you have to do it.

Exactly. That brings up a really good point. Just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean you have to be the one to do it. I feel like it’s so much more important to do what you love doing. And hopefully the two will align to where you’re doing what you love and you’re good at it. But man, I would say go for the thing that you love doing most and then everything else will sort of fall into place.

Lee: 13:36
Yes, it’s kind of a natural occurrence. The things that you love to do, you tend to excel at them more so because you are comfortable putting in the time and the effort towards those goals. And as a result, those things are going to be more successful because you’ve put in more valuable time into them.

So if there’s something that you don’t like, you might cut corners, you might not spend as much time as you need to. And in the end, if your heart’s not in it, then the work will end up showing.

Brittany: 14:07
Exactly. Now let’s say that somebody is just looking for their in. They know they want to be in the fiber arts industry. Maybe they don’t know exactly what they want to do yet. Let’s just sort of give some options here. Like what are some different jobs or different roles that people could play in this industry?

Lee: 14:30
So when you’re thinking about looking for a position behind the scenes in the maker community in the crafting industry, there are a number of different avenues that you can take. And basically, if you think about it, say a company like Annie’s—like I said before, they’re an umbrella company. So they have social media pages. They have knitting magazines. They have crochet magazines. They have filming. They have design lines.

And each of those products under the umbrella of their name require staff basically to complete the work. And so if you kind of think about it in that way, you can kind of slot your different skill sets into a position. And if you know what you’re good at and you know where to look, you can start applying to different companies to benefit them with your skills.

So for example, tech editing. It means that you are adept at editing patterns and finding mistakes and conforming them to the standard stitches and abbreviations that are set out. And things like that are really valuable in the maker community behind the scenes, and that kind of work is available and readily available.

Brittany: 15:49
Yeah, I know. And I’m sitting here thinking too—I mean, you’re naming off all of these things—there are just so many different possibilities.

I think right now we get it in our head that the only way to do something in the fiber arts industry is to sell your goods. One, because that is always what somebody says. They’re like, hey, you should sell your work or you should make scarves and sell them at craft fairs or whatever. And that’s great. There is a person for that, but that person isn’t necessarily me.

And then you think of the blogger-designer aspect of it, or the YouTuber. But I feel like we forget a lot of times about the companies—you know, the yarn companies, the magazine companies, the places like Annie’s, the production companies. I mean, so many things come to mind here and we have to, I think, be aware of that a little bit more because our in might be with one of those companies.

Maybe it’s not doing something for yourself, or maybe it’s not publishing online or anything like that. It could be, like you said, tech editing for a company like Annie’s.

Lee: 17:00
And things like photography as well, and blogging and social media input. I do a lot of social media. I create original content. I post, you know, Annie’s content on a regular basis across a wide variety of social media platforms for them on their behalf. And that has nothing to do with me as a maker. It’s my work and something that I value and get a lot of pleasure doing.

So the designer—the kind of the maker job—can be multifaceted. It doesn’t have to be kind of the mega Instagrammer where you have a blog and that’s it, basically.

Brittany: 17:40
Yeah. I think that’s a really good point too. And I’m curious—I was sitting here thinking—how would somebody even know that these positions are available? Do companies like that post to regular job boards, or do you have to visit the website, or do you just have to know somebody?

Lee: 17:57
That’s a great question too. I stumbled into the crafting community because I enjoy the crafting community. So years ago, I had been following a certain crafting publication, and they put out a job posting. Basically, they put out a public job posting.

So if there is a place that you’re interested in or a certain company that you’re interested in, just keep an eye on their social media because that is their way to communicate with you. So if you enjoy a certain magazine or if you enjoy a certain crafting company, check out their website on a regular basis. They probably have a newsletter that you can subscribe to via email. And that’s basically a great way to keep track of any opportunities and see if those opportunities fit your…

Brittany: 18:52
…lifestyle. Yeah, that’s a good point there. I feel like I’ve seen a couple of job postings come through on Instagram here. I wouldn’t say recently, but in the past—in the past year—where even smaller companies, it doesn’t even have to be a large brand that’s really well known.

I’ve seen smaller like yarn shops posting for open positions and that sort of thing. So good tips. I think this is—we’re on a good track here.

So we’ve mentioned a few different types of jobs that you can have in the industry. You mentioned tech editing. We’ve talked about designing and filmmaking. The book industry is another thing, too. I feel like there are some good possibilities there. Do you have any experience with that?

Lee: 19:44
I have been asked this year to write blurbs for different makers’ books. And because I’ve been asked as a professional to write the blurbs for the books—kind of giving my, you know, your valued opinion on the book itself—it has actually opened my eyes a little bit to the world of bookmaking in itself.

And I will be part of a Lion Brand book coming out as a collaborative book in the new year. I think it’s coming out in the summer or the fall of 2019. And so I’m really excited to be a collaborative designer in that book, but I am interested in the whole book making idea as well. And so I’ll be looking into that in the new year, definitely.

Brittany: 20:31
Yeah. So I wonder—for somebody to be in the fiber arts industry, to consider that their job—would you say that that person needs to be able to do many different things and kind of work more of like a contractor than saying, yes, I work full-time for X brand and it’s just like a normal job? I just work for this one company. Or is it somewhere in between?

Lee: 21:03
I feel like it’s somewhere in between, to be honest. If you were thinking about getting involved in the making of a book, then the designs in that book have to be very thought out and thoroughly executed. And so some of those things come with a lot of design experience.

And so oftentimes when you are a designer with lots of experience, then you’ve kind of delved into all of these other avenues already. So I feel like it kind of comes hand in hand.

Brittany: 21:35
Yeah. And you know, another thing that comes up when you’re talking about finding a new job or maybe even transitioning careers—the topic of experience comes up, and you just mentioned that.

So do you think that somebody needs to have professional experience to get into the fiber arts industry—like for maybe one of these other companies or to be contracted by a bigger brand? Do they have to have professional experience or can you consider your experience—your making, your hobby—as experience?

Lee: 24:28
Exactly. And companies like Annie’s have been around for generations. They’ve been putting out patterns and catalogs for decades. So they definitely know their wheelhouse and they know who they need and what they need from those people.

So, you know, coming into the crafting industry as a new maker, it’s good to take a look around and find kind of the bigger picture companies and yarn companies as well that perhaps might have some opportunities or have been doing this for a long time that you can learn from.

Brittany: 25:08
Yeah. And just to clarify things, too, I know this question has come up several times. The word maker, how would you define that? I

Lee: 25:17
define maker as, and it’s actually a good question. It is, right? I would define a maker as somebody that uses tools. a certain material. And for us in the fiber arts community, it’s obviously yarn to create original designs and products.

So it doesn’t necessarily mean that you are writing the patterns, but if you’re creating things to sell, then you’re a maker in our community, or I guess not even to sell, but you are an artist. You’re designing something with yarn, you’re making something with yarn, and you’re presenting it for others to enjoy.

Yeah, kind of like behind the

Brittany: 26:20
scenes. Right. Well, thank you for clarifying that. I know, like you said, it’s a good question. It’s a little difficult to define or to pinpoint because I feel like it may mean something just slightly different to everybody.

And for me personally, I can relate to being a maker as a designer. So a large portion of the audience here, they are designers and that’s what they want to pursue. That’s maybe what they’re trying to pursue right now.

Let’s chat a little bit about that. What does design work look like in the industry? And how might somebody break into that if they want to do that, if that’s their career path?

Lee: 27:04
If you are looking to be a designer in the fiber arts community, then it’s definitely one of those things to start off with maybe your own personal blog. And I always recommend that people familiarize themselves with a major publication, whether it be a book from the library or an established magazine, so that you can kind of glean how they write their patterns and what their standards for pattern writing are, so that you can present your work in a meaningful way to the rest of the community.

Because there’s quite a variance in pattern writing. in the design world right now. And as a tech editor, especially for major publications, most major publications will follow the Crochet Guild of America standards. I’m pretty sure that that’s what it is.

Brittany: 28:02
The Craft Council.

Lee: 28:05
That’s it, Craft Yarn Council, sorry. And we follow those standards for abbreviations. And so those references are all online and available for new designers to make themselves aware of.

And so if you’re looking to start designing, definitely a blog or your own Ravelry or Etsy shop is probably the first avenue to go. And then from there, you can start submitting to… magazine calls. And there’s a great Ravelry forum for submissions, where you can kind of see any of the major publications that are looking for submission calls and how to enter into those.

And then again, like you said, there’s book opportunities further along the line and possibly design work with major companies.

Brittany: 28:58
Yeah. So that Ravelry thing you were talking about, is that a group or is that a thread? Oh, it’s the forum. Okay. I would love to include that in the show notes. So I’ll have to get the information from you on that.

I think that could be really helpful for somebody who is pursuing some of those publications. I feel like that could be a full-time job in itself. And just from talking to other people who have submitted to magazines before, you got to do a lot of research and you have to plan it pretty far in advance. So I think that would be really helpful for somebody who’s looking to do that sort of thing.

Lee: 29:41
And that’s another part of it is that part of the designing world is definitely planned well in advance. I’m designing a shawl right now for a crochet magazine that will be published in August 2019.

So you can’t share that on your social media because it’s a commissioned piece and So, you know, as a designer, if you start working for major companies, you have to sit on your designs for a long time before you can share them publicly.

Brittany: 30:13
And I’m wondering if that is more in the print world or not. Now, I haven’t done a whole lot with print. I haven’t submitted to a magazine or anything like that. I do most of my work online. As everybody knows, I publish videos and content online.

And That’s not necessarily the case, it seems, in the digital world. It seems like you have to work a little closer to the deadline. But in the publishing world, you work a lot further out.

And I feel like that’s a really important distinction to make because some people are really good on their toes and they like tight deadlines and that fuels them. But sometimes people don’t. Some people don’t like that and they can’t work that way.

Lee: 31:03
Right. So to kind of put that into a little bit more of clarification, if you’re if you’re independently publishing, then you’re obviously publishing on your own time frame.

And so you can publish something, you know, in a week, in two days. If you if you’ve created a new design with a viral yarn, let’s say, you know, something that’s been you’ve been seeing everywhere, you can publish that online. the same day independently if you wish.

But if you’re publishing a pattern for a major publication, then that’s the difference is that those things take time. And so the process is a lot more arduous and lengthy. Yeah.

Brittany: 31:47
And I appreciate that clarification because, like I said, I feel like that could play into people’s personality types. And if they’re just sort of getting information right now and trying to figure out what’s best for them, I think that would be really important to know. And

Lee: 32:03
I do both. I do a lot of both, actually. I publish a lot on my blog and in my Ravelry store with independent designs, but then for every independent design, there’s probably about five industry designs behind the scenes that I haven’t been able to show anybody. Yes.

Brittany: 32:21
And that’s always so difficult when you’re doing both because you’re using up the time for those commissioned projects. So you can’t necessarily squeeze in more of your own, but then you eventually run out of things to post.

So the struggle is definitely real there. It’s like you’re reading my mind. Okay. So for somebody who is just figuring things out, just soaking it up and taking it all in. I want to just recap everything because I feel like it is so real. It’s totally possible for somebody to get a job in the fiber arts industry if that’s exactly what they want.

But there are so many different routes that they can go. And let’s just sort of clean those up a little bit and say, you know, these are your categories, if you will, of different avenues that you can take or pursue.

Lee: 33:17
So, you know, there are a handful that I’m familiar with and there might be more that I haven’t yet seen or touched upon in my particular skill set. But there’s obviously social media technician. So that basically means that you can work for a certain company and you run their social media as that company.

So that’s where I got my start. And, you know, it’s a nameless job and you work under the banner of a company basically and pretend to be them. And so, you know, those kinds of skills are obviously computer skills and advertising skills, along with communication and being in touch with your audience. So knowledge of the community is definitely an asset.

Aside from that, there’s tech editing, like we mentioned before, where if you are adept at proofing and adhering to certain standards and finding technical mistakes in a publication, specifically in crocheting and knitting, then tech editors are always in demand. And many, many, many companies use them on a pattern by pattern basis. So basically, you would be hired out as the technician and you would get paid for every pattern that you edit.

Aside from those two, then there’s the blogging sphere where you blog on behalf of a company again, or even as yourself, a lot of companies will let you blog under your own name, under their banner. So my friend Ron Strong does that for Red Heart and he really enjoys that work and they enjoy having him. So that’s definitely an avenue to take as well.

There’s photography, there’s videography, there’s, you know, demonstration in terms of being on live video and demonstrating pattern. There’s designing for certain companies. Basically, they give you an outline of what they’re looking for and you kind of meet those parameters with your design.

I think I’ve got them all covered, but there might even be more.

Brittany: 35:30
Yeah, that’s all I was thinking of too. I feel like that does cover everything really well. So yeah, thank you for that clarification. I feel like we’re giving people a really good starting point.

So I would say first step is figure out the end goal because if you don’t know where you’re going, you’ll never get there. That was part of my keynote presentation and I’ll sing it again because it’s so important.

So figure out where you want to go and then map the route to get there. If designing is what you want to do, you know, go back and listen again if you have to about how to start off as a designer. I mean, own it. Figure out what you want to do, own it, and make it.

Lee: 36:13
Mm-hmm

Brittany: 36:13
That’s definitely a great place to start. Yes. Well, I appreciate all of your wisdom here today. I know that it will be so valuable for people now and in the future. And I would love to give people the opportunity to connect with you after they’ve listened today. So where would be a good place for them to connect with you?

Lee: 36:33
My favorite social media platform and the one that I am most often available on is my Instagram. put that into the podcast, but just verbally it is at coco.crochet.ly.

Brittany: 36:52
Awesome. That is my favorite place to hang out as well. So I will link. Great. It’s a great platform for everybody. It is. It’s so much fun. It really is my favorite place to hang out.

So I will have that in the show notes as well. So you can visit with Lee over on her Instagram page where she loves to hang out. And man, thank you again. This has been so much fun.

Lee: 37:14
It’s always a pleasure to talk to you, Brittany, in person and over the podcast. It’s always great to have a conversation with you.

Brittany: 37:23
All right. I hope you enjoyed that episode with Lee from Coco Crochet. Lee, man, did you realize that there were that many different things that you could do in the fiber arts industry? I know as I was sitting there, just all of these ideas kept coming to mind and I just couldn’t help but thinking that it doesn’t matter what you’re good at, do what you love.

And if the fiber arts industry, if designing or photography or whatever it may be, if that’s what you love, then go for it, my friend. It is a possibility. You can make money. Actually call this your job. I wouldn’t be here if you couldn’t. And all it takes is a little education and a lot of motivation.

Now, if you have any questions or comments related to this, I would love for you to continue the conversation over on the show notes page. So that is sort of like your hub to continue the conversation. A podcast is very one-sided, right? I have the ability to talk to you, but we can’t necessarily… exchange after the fact.

So that’s why the show notes are there and that’s why the comments are turned on. It’s your space for us to be able to connect after the episode. So once again, the show notes page for today’s show is bhooked.com/100.

Now I have to ask a question. Since we’re on our 100th episode, have you subscribed to the show yet? It may seem like a really small task or that it doesn’t make a difference at all, but it really does.

So if you haven’t subscribed to the show already, I would ask you this one favor today, and that would be to subscribe to the show. And if you have an extra minute, just leave an honest rating and/or review. It only takes a couple minutes, and I definitely don’t want you to just give me a great rating unless I’ve earned it.

So that would be my favor for you today on this 100th episode.

All right. Thank you so much. You have no idea how much that means to me. I am so grateful for you. I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for you. And I wouldn’t continue if it weren’t for you either.

So thank you so much, my podcasting friend. And I will see you next week with another episode. Bye for now.