Running Down Your Dream with Author Tim Grahl | Podcast Episode #93

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Are you working toward a goal but can’t get any traction?

If so, fear may be the resistance that’s holding you back. Artists and creators face fear every single day and realization is the first step to overcoming it. If you’re running down a dream, you need to hear this episode! I always say fear is an indicator that you’re on the right track. When you’re afraid of taking the next step, it’s because you truly care about the outcome. We explore this and even more today.

Today’s Guest

Today you’ll hear from Tim Grahl, author of Running Down a Dream and let me just say, this was one of the most motivating and insightful conversations I’ve had lately. We chat about fear and how to overcome it as an artist.

You’ll Learn About

• About a book project that I’m working on
• Fear’s role in creating
• How to overcome fear

Episode Transcript

Brittany:
Hey there, and thank you so much for joining me in episode 93 of the BHooked Podcast. Boy, do I have a special one for you today. I am so excited about my guest today. And don’t get me wrong, I am always excited about my guest. But this one, well, this was one of those interviews where I was a little bit nervous before going into it. And that was because I was speaking with somebody who I really admired and really looked up to.

Now let me paint a little picture for you before we get started. You have this incredible idea. It could be for a new project. It could be for a new blog post or a new pattern. You have some kind of idea that you’ve come up with and you’re so proud of it, but you think that maybe it could be a little different. Maybe it’s a little too far out there and you think, I don’t know if anybody’s really going to like this. And that fear settles in. And it completely inhibits you from moving forward with that project.

I know a lot of us face this on social media too. Think about Instagram specifically. How many times have you typed something into that post in your comment and you read it and you re-read it and then you went back and deleted it because you thought, maybe I was a little bit too… me in this statement and maybe you thought that you would upset somebody or that you would say the wrong thing or that maybe you would offend somebody. That fear settled in and it kept you from being your unique self.

Are you seeing a trend here with these stories? Fear is at the heart of our conversation today, specifically as it relates to us as artists, as creators, as people who literally turn string into something amazing.

Now, before we get to it, I want to let you know that this show notes page can be found at behookedcrochet.com slash session093. We do talk about a couple of resources, and I definitely want to point you to Tim’s book called Running Down a Dream. I’ll have that linked in the show notes as well. Just know that that is an Amazon affiliate link. And if you do decide to purchase a book through that link, I will receive a small commission. But please know that I am not recommending the book because of that little commission. I’m recommending it because it was really helpful for me to overcoming some of the fear so that I’m able to take those next steps to achieve my goals in both my hobby life and my professional life. So you can find the link to where you can get Tim’s book on the show notes page as well as find out some more information about him. He’s a really incredible human being and especially in the world of publishing.

I also want to thank my sponsor, Red Heart, for allowing me to bring you this really exciting episode to you today. Red Heart has a couple of new yarns that we’ve talked about a little bit over the course of the last couple of months. Well, one of those new yarns you know is called hygge. But did you know that there are two different types of hygge yarn? The main hygge is the really fluffy, soft one that I mentioned in our previous episode. However, there is also a worsted weight version version of hygge — well this one is called hygge charm and it’s a worsted weight sort of a smoother version of the other hygge yarn so you get a nice clean stitch definition and if you look really close you can even see some sparkling elements to this yarn.

Well, it is available in 16 different colors. There are lots of neutrals in there for those of you who love creams and tans and grays, but there are also some great colors if you need to add a little pop to your project. To see hygge yarn and check out some of the free patterns that Red Heart has available using this yarn, just head over to redheart.com and search for hygge charm. You can find those patterns directly at the bottom of that yarn page. So if you scroll past the features section, the colors and that sort of thing, you’ll find the related patterns section and that’ll direct you to the projects that you can create with this yarn. So check out hyggecharm on redheart.com. I’ll have that linked in the show notes as well, so you can check it out today.

So Tim Graw is the author of two books, Running Down a Dream, which is the one I just finished reading at the end of October, and Your First 1,000 Copies. Now, he specifically works with authors in the publishing industry, and he’s a wealth of knowledge as far as that goes. But his passion really lies with talking about fear and its role in the creative process. So that’s what Running Down a Dream is about. It’s a book that is sort of a roadmap to overcoming those fears.

And just because he’s talking about his journey as an author, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t relate to us as artists ourselves. So for me personally, it really is struck a chord because I am in the process of writing a book now — it’s something I haven’t really spoke about too often because we’ll get to it in the interview — there are definitely some fear elements that are coming into play but the book gave me the kick that I really needed and so I’m really grateful for that.

But when we think about fear and its role in our creative process, there are definitely parallels between industries on how we can sort of kick fear in the face when it comes to finishing our projects, running down our dream, achieving our goals, and it can be as simple as just posting something that’s uniquely you on Instagram about the thing that you just made.

So that’s the focus of our conversation today. Hold on to your hats, guys. This is a good one. I… I really just couldn’t wait to get back into the editing mode so I can listen to this episode again. I know it’s going to help you. I can almost bet that fear is one of the things that’s holding you back. So let’s get to it, shall we? Tim, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Tim: 6:42
Oh, I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Brittany.

Brittany: 6:44
Well, it is my pleasure. So to give my listener a little bit of a backstory, a couple months back, you contacted me on Instagram and offered to send me a copy of your new book, Running Down a Dream. And you told me that the book was about the creative journey and the successes and failures along the way. And then you predicted that it would be a perfect fit for me. And I’m not really sure how you did it, but you just hit the nail on the head. I found it to be so motivational and so inspirational. And I can’t help but wonder how you stumbled upon my Instagram page, both of us being in two very different industries, sort of.

Tim: 7:23
Well, I was, you know, this is the story of, you know, running down a dream of trying to set out on a creative pursuit. And so I was just looking for people on Instagram that looked like they were doing that sort of thing. I’ve been in the publishing world for a decade, and one of the things I was really excited about with this book was it kind of gave me an excuse to connect with people that were outside of just the writing world. My wife was a big crocheter for a long time and still does it, and so I’m familiar tangentially with that. So when I came across it, I just thought that it would be a good fit. So I reached out and offered to send a copy. So yeah, that was it.

Brittany: 8:14
Yeah, the rest is history, right?

Tim: 8:16
Yeah.

Brittany: 8:17
Well, I’m really thrilled to have the opportunity to thank you in person, we’ll say, here for giving me a kick that I really needed. As I read through the first part of the book, it was really easy to connect with you and your story. And I mean, to be honest, I’ve read a lot of books that are sort of designed to help you improve or find motivation. I kind of soak it all up. I read as many as I possibly can. And in some of those, my BS meter is kind of high, if we can be honest.

But Running Down a Dream, it wasn’t like that. Instead of like painting a picture of rainbows and unicorns and everything is perfect if you do these things and you’ll find success, it wasn’t like that at all in this book. You painted the picture exactly how it was, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I was really able to connect with that.

Tim: 9:10
Yeah, you know, I’ve been under the tutelage of a writing coach for about three years now. His name is Sean Coyne. We actually do a podcast about learning how to tell great stories. And so one of the things that he says all the time is that specificity breeds universality. And it’s kind of, I’m going to actually explain what that says, what that means, because it took me a while to understand it.

You know, we often think that to get people to connect with the story, we have to go broad. We have to make it broad, kind of vague, so that it won’t like cut anybody out, right? So they’ll all connect. But the truth is that we connect the most with stories that are extremely specific, right?

So my story on the face, I mean, I don’t know anything about your story, but if we tried to compare them, if somebody else was comparing them… they’d be like, Oh no, your stories are completely different. Like, you know, he’s in publishing and you’re, you know, have a podcast or, you know, everything you do. And there’s really no comparison.

But what happens is, is when you get really specific with a story, it allows the reader to kind of, put themselves into your place and empathize with you. And I think what is common with my story versus your story versus everybody else’s story are the feelings that you have along the way of feeling like you’re not good enough, feeling like all you do is fail, feeling like you’re weird because you are failing constantly.

And so when I just tried to tell my story as true as I possibly could, knowing that if I was able to do that, then other people would read my story and read themselves into my story. I mean, we do this with fiction all the time. Like, how do we read a book like Lord of the Rings when it’s like on, you know, kind of logically, it’s like this kind of silly story. But at the same time, we are agonizing along with the characters.

And so that’s what I was just trying to do was I felt like if I could be as true as possible with my story, because I’ve read all those books, too. I read a ton. And, you know, I really I felt like I wanted to tell the truth of what this really looks like. Right. It’s not like, oh, it was kind of hard. And then I figured this thing out and it got easy. It was like it was hard. I figured some stuff out. Still hard. Figured some stuff out even harder, you know, and that’s how I think it goes for most people.

Brittany: 11:45
Yeah, it does. And that’s exactly what happened to me as I was reading it. And I wasn’t ready for that, to be honest, because I am coming off of so many books where they tell it from way zoomed out perspective. This is how you need to do it. And to do it, you’ll find success.

And we on the surface seem to be very different. But I was able to relate to all of those struggles because I feel like that’s no matter where you’re at in your life or what you’re doing, we’re all going to relate to those things.

So honestly, by about the middle of the book, I was fully invested. And to be honest, I really had no clue which direction it would go because I hadn’t heard about this book. I really just went into it with a blank slate.

And then you started talking about writing a book. And over those next several pages that followed that, it was like somebody just smacked me on the back of the head. And I got that jolt to the system that, hey, don’t forget, you have a manuscript upstairs sitting on your computer, the first manuscript that’s about 80% complete.

And I know in my heart that this book has the ability to solve the problems of my audience. They’re asking me this question every day. And… your book and you just us randomly meeting the way that we did it was able to inspire me to open up those pages those documents after sitting there for two years and I’m a little embarrassed to say but you know it’s it’s what I needed.

Tim: 13:23
Well, you know that’s normal. I work with—that’s all I’ve pretty much worked with over the last 10 years—as writers. And even this book, I mean, I wrote the first draft of this book in 30 days. Which is insane. But that was over two years before the book came out because it wasn’t the book yet. And I had to keep churning on it. And I would put it in my drawer for a few months and then pull it back out and work on it some more. And then Sean, my writing coach and editor, would say it’s still not good enough. And I’d get frustrated and put it away and then bring it out and work on it again.

And it took me almost two years of churning on this thing to finally figure out what I was trying to say. And that is a pretty normal process, especially if you’re writing your first book or your second book or you’re starting on a project that you’ve never done before. Because writing a book is much harder than the majority of people think. Like even as somebody that had worked with writers, when I sat down to write my first book—this is my third one—but when I sat down to write my first book, I was like, oh, this will be easy. I’ll knock this out. And it’s really hard.

And so because the typing of the words is the easy part. It’s figuring out how to type 40, 50, 80,000 words in a row that actually makes sense and will bring the writer or the reader along and conclude in the way that you’re trying to conclude it. And a lot of times I feel like I’m writing to figure out what I’m trying to say. So I end up throwing away all this stuff because I didn’t really know what I was trying to say when I first started writing. Have you experienced anything like that?

Brittany: 15:16
Oh, yeah, completely. So in going over the documents, opening them up, I have, gosh, probably as it sits now, it’s about a 10-chapter book, full circle. And I have about, I think, eight of those complete. So I went to one of the finished chapters—or the ones that I had labeled as finished—and started reading through it. And I guess because there was so much time in between when I wrote that initially, to when I was reviewing it, I don’t know if I’ve just grown as a person during that time or I’ve come up with a different perspective, but I was able to find ways to, like you said, make it better and improve it.

So I just have like a shell or a frame, if you will, and I’m trying to mold that into a complete thought or like a complete book that’s going to help people with this particular problem.

Tim: 16:13
Yeah, and I mean, and that’s the way it goes is just constantly turning on it and looking at it from different directions. You know, when I finally wrote the introduction that ended up being the final introduction that you read in the book. And I found that because I had written probably literally a dozen introductions to this book. Sean, my editor, kept telling me, you’ve got to dig into it. You’ve got to tell the real story.

I kept trying to start the book when I quit my job. My first two books were these kind of guru-on-a-hill books, right? And this is where most books are written, is like, I’m the smart guy that knows all this stuff, that’s learned all this stuff, and now I’m gonna share it with you. And that’s normal, that’s how probably most books should be written.

But what I realized is, instead of being the guru on the hill, for this one I had to go down and tour all my ruins. And so instead of the opening of the book being about this triumphant moment of quitting my job and starting out on my own, it became six months later when I ran out of money and had to ask my parents for help and what that felt like.

And I think when we’re writing, it’s so hard sometimes to dig down into that spot where we’re going to tell the truth about what’s going on. And it’s hard to know when we get there. So I think even putting it away for time and coming back to it is the right way to do it because it allows you to get a different perspective on it.

I mean, Stephen King talked about this in his book on writing that when he finishes a manuscript, he puts it in the drawer for a period of time so he can come back and read it fresh. So, you know, that’s a… I don’t think that’s an abnormal thing. I think you’re actually on the right track when you start doing stuff like that.

Brittany: 18:25
Yeah. Well, that’s definitely good to know because there was a lot of guilt that came up. And just knowing that it’s there and that it has the potential to help, it almost brings up feelings of selfishness that I’m not pursuing that or going after that harder than I am.

But you know, you talk a lot about fear in your book, and this was one way that I was really able to relate to what you were saying, and I know a lot of people can relate to this too.

So to give you sort of like a point of reference, and the listener too, I mean, there’s a handful of my audience who know about this project, those who have been with me for the past couple years, but there are some people around that may have no clue what I’m talking about.

So this book in particular is about reading patterns, which is a topic that feels really tactical, right? It’s a step-by-step process. But for me, it’s more than that. It’s almost like there are some expressive aspects to it. Like you don’t just need to know the steps. You need to be confident in yourself first—to know that you’re doing the right thing, or you have to be able to focus so you don’t jump around and lose your place. You have to break some old habits because a lot of people are really, really comfortable with video tutorials, which is one thing I produce. That’s sort of like the main thing that I do is I teach people how to knit and crochet through video.

So it almost seems counterintuitive that here I am trying to teach you how to read a pattern in this book. And so because I have that different approach to teaching the topic I feel like that’s where some of that resistance is coming for me in terms of, well this is different, right? It’s not the typical way that somebody would expect to learn this topic. And so it’s easy for resistance and fear to just sort of stop me dead in my tracks and say wait, is this really what you want to put out in the world?

And the honest answer is yes, because I truly believe that it’s the right way to learn.

Tim: 20:34
Yeah. And I mean, so you’re dealing with just understanding like how to break out of that fear or like, are you, tell me a little bit more about that.

Brittany: 20:45
I feel like I’m at the point now where I’m sort of kicking fear in the face a little bit and I’m okay to push it down, push it aside and sort of power through because I am comfortable with that. But I guess at this point, I’m just so curious about how fear, like, why does it do that? Why do we get so afraid of doing what we think is right?

Tim: 21:16
Well, I think it’s a couple different reasons. I mean, one is that, you know, one of the ways I think about this is in this idea of telling the truth. Um, because, and I don’t mean truth as in like one plus one is two or gravity is true, or you tell your kids to tell the truth about, you know, whether they ate that cookie or whatever. It’s more about like, there’s something my soul is silently screaming to say out loud. And I’m trying to get it out.

And this applies to every art form. I mean, I’ve seen it with musicians, I’ve seen it with painters, I’ve seen it with piano players, I’ve seen it with writers. Any kind of art form is us trying to put out in the world what our soul is trying to say.

And so by definition, these aren’t just widgets rolling off an assembly line that we’re trying to now get out into the world. This is something that’s extremely personal. It’s something that we feel like if somebody judges negatively, they’re not judging it, they’re judging us. And that’s scary too.

And then the other thing that we have to remember is that our brains are built to live on the plains as hunter-gatherers and extremely small groups of people and if you, you know, you’re living with say a hundred people you know them all and if for some reason you do something where you piss off, you know, 90 of them and you get kicked out like you’re dead. You know you will just die.

And so here we are in our modern society interacting with tens of thousands of people on the Internet, trying to put our work out and get it out to more and more people. And our brain, it’s like taking—I had a mentor, Josh Kaufman, who’s written a couple of great books—He explained it to me like you take the Commodore 64 which is this personal computer that can’t—it’s an 8-bit personal computer that came out in 1982—and then take the latest version of Microsoft Windows and just try to install it on that Commodore 64. Like the whole thing would just shut down.

Yeah, and so on one hand these fears are completely illogical right? We have a—Our fear is there to protect us from bears chasing us. And there’s no bears currently chasing me, and yet I’m afraid.

And I think it comes back to this idea of we’re afraid to expose ourselves to people because of that rejection. And that fear of rejection is extremely important. Um, it’s, it’s, it’s like this base part of our brain that, um, does not want to be rejected.

We were afraid of being rejected because we’re wrong. We’re afraid of being rejected because we’re right. I mean, it’s both.

And so I have just found like really processing where that fear is coming from. Doing things like following that fear to the end, you know, what am I actually afraid? And I’ll write this stuff down. I’ll be like, okay, I’m afraid. Here’s what I’m afraid of. What are the odds of that actually happening? If it really does, if all, you know, the shit really hits the fan and everything goes wrong, like this, you know, this horrible thing will happen.

And most of the time you realize nothing bad could actually happen. And, but it is, you know, The other thing is that creativity, by definition, is doing something that nobody has ever done before. Um, even if you’re just doing like your take on something, right? Like if you’re playing the guitar and you’re playing a song, you know, a Metallica song, right? You know, so it’s like, it’s not like you came up with the song, but you’re playing it, you’re doing it in your way. It’s going to have your spin on it.

And that’s scary because you’re doing something new. And, uh, anytime we’re doing something new, uh, it’s going to be scary.

And so what I feel like is what I’m trying to reframe my fear is, is when I’m afraid, that means I’m doing something right. Because if I was comfortable, that means I’m doing something I’ve done before. I’m doing something, you know, I’m sure like if you put out, you know, you put out all these videos, you probably don’t even get nervous creating these videos anymore. Right.

I’ve been teaching online for a long time as well. And at first it would take me like an hour to just work up the nerve to hit the record button. And now I just flip it on and start talking. And I could keep doing that. And that would be super comfortable.

And yet I want to do something new. And so I set out on a new project and it’s just as scary as 10 years ago when I started making online videos.

And so I try to look at it as if I’m doing all of my creative work and I’m not feeling fear, something’s wrong. I’m not pushing myself. I’m not putting myself out there in a way that’s actually a little bit dangerous, which I think is what we have to do.

Brittany: 26:24
Yeah, and I love that reference, too. I like to say that, too. If you feel fear, you know that you’re doing the right thing.

And it’s strange when you’re in that situation, though. It’s almost like I didn’t even think of that before. Like, yes, I’ve stood up and spoken in front of a hundred different makers and said, you know, fear is an indicator that you’re doing exactly what you should be doing.

And yet, for some reason… It’s so easy to lose sight of that. Fear will literally make you forget those things.

And so it’s refreshing to hear that fear is your driving force.

Tim: 27:05
Well, and I think it’s important. I think it’s one of the most damaging things to our creativity, but it’s also just one of the poorest uses of our mental capacity is shaming ourselves for anything. So when you start feeling that shame that you haven’t worked on the book in a while and all that kind of stuff and you start thinking like, oh my gosh, you know, I’m supposed to be creating, especially in people like our position where people know who we are, we kind of feel like, well, people think I’m this great creative and look at me, I’m not even working on anything, you know, like if I go a week without writing and I’m supposed to be a writer and I teach people how to write, like, it’s like, oh my God, you know, and now I start feeling like I got to hide.

And so, what I’ve really tried to do with that shame is let’s flip it around. Let’s assume that on my own, I’m going to do the right thing. I’m going to do my work. I’m going to step out. I’m going to do fear. I’m going to step into that fear. If I’m not, that means there’s just something in the way. Let’s start experimenting with some ideas about what that roadblock may be and how we might be able to pull that out.

So if I’m not working on my book, like I just finished the second draft of this novel, and it’s probably going to be the draft that ends up getting published in 2019. And I would reach these points where I just wouldn’t work on it for a week or two weeks at a time. And now, again, I run a podcast about writing, and it’s about writing my fiction. So it becomes a real problem if I’m not writing.

And so I would just start talking to somebody. Hey, I haven’t written in a while. Could you just talk me through this? And they’re like, OK, well, why haven’t you written? I don’t know. I’m just kind of afraid. Why are you afraid? And like it just kind of talk it out. And then I’ll eventually find like, oh, it’s this thing that’s keeping me. That’s not something I can I can work through that.

But so many times that shame, it like it forces us to not even look at it. And so we just, it’s like this reinforcing cycle. And so I’ve really, anytime I start to feel that shame, I start thinking, no, no, no, no, I’m a writer that is naturally going to write or, you know, I’m a creator that’s naturally going to create. So if I’m not creating, there’s just something in the way and I need to go on an investigative journey to figure out what that is.

Because most of the time, as soon as we find out what it is, we get past it. It’s not even work to get past it. It’s just figuring out what it is in the first place. It’s like realizing, like feeling like, have you ever seen like those videos of like a dog that’s like walking and there’s like, Yeah. Yeah. Getting into some habits of having some people to talk to, journaling about it, and not just like, oh, I suck, and oh, look, I’m doing it again. I keep telling people I’m going to finish this project. I still haven’t finished it.

It never gets you where you want to go. That self-flagellation is just awful. Yeah. Becoming curious about it of like, okay, well, what’s holding me back? Because I love to create. I am a creator. That’s who I am. And so something’s holding me back. So let’s just be a little curious about it and see if I can find what that thing is.

And it’s usually something that you’re afraid of that’s actually not that big a deal. Or you can find like, oh, if I just do this, I can kind of like get around it and get my work done.

Brittany: 30:59
Yeah, that makes so much sense that just taking some time to figure out what that thing is because if we do what you recommended before, just write down the things that you’re fearful of in the grand scheme of things. Like you said, we’re designed to be fearful of predators eating us. And since that’s not the case, the things that could happen as a result of you doing something or doing what you want to do really isn’t all that bad.

And like you said, it’s easy to step over that once you realize that that’s the thing that’s holding you back. Do you think that once you figure that out in one scenario, that you’re more likely to be in tune with that the next time, maybe the next time you’re creating a different project? Have you found that you have the same hiccup and then you have to revisit that or once you have addressed it once, it’s sort of not an issue anymore.

Tim: 31:57
Well, I’ve had, so I believe that fear, so I tend to believe that fear is like an actual malignant force, like it has some thought to it. It’s not just this, it’s conscious is kind of how I picture it.

And like a good enemy, the enemy constantly changes his tactics based on you, right? So like I do jujitsu. And every time I learn something new, all the people at my gym start learning how to combat that new thing. And I have to go out and learn something new. And it’s this constant back and forth.

So what I found is fear is a constant shifting force of evil that’s trying to get us to not do our work. And Steve Pressfield in the book, The War of Art, who’s my friend and my publisher, he calls it resistance. And creative resistance is this constant malignant force that’s keeping you from doing your work. And it will constantly shift gears however it needs to do to keep you from doing your work.

But what I will say is… Once you start learning what it feels like and you start understanding like, okay, this is something new. I need to go on an investigative journey, right? So it used to be years ago when I was first trying to start a blog, first trying to put my work out in the world. I mean, this sucker would kill me for months and years at a time on some projects.

But now, I’ve kind of, now that I’ve learned how to overcome it, it comes up in new ways, but I have like this tool set that I start trying to use to overcome it. And that’s where I start talking about like, okay, once I realize I’m actively avoiding my work, it wasn’t just that I was busy today. It wasn’t just that I was sick. It’s now been three weeks. I haven’t done anything. What’s going on?

So then I start pulling my tools out. I’ll journal. You know start just free journaling about like what’s going on in my head. Why am I avoiding my work? I’ll call up a friend of mine who’s also a creative and I would like say and I’ll say, you know, hey, let’s talk this out You know, I haven’t been writing a lot of times just admitting it to somebody Like and they’re like, yeah me neither. Yeah, you know, just like okay like that alone like releases something.

But I think you know, then I start kind of systematically. So I don’t think that fear ever leaves you because again, creativity by definition is doing something you’ve never done before. So even if you’ve been actively creating for 50 years, but then you set out to do something new that you’ve never done before, you’re going to be afraid.

But I think the pro, the person that has really The pro is mostly the person that has learned how to keep working in the midst of that. That is more of the skill set. I used to have this dream that one day I would no longer be afraid. One day, once I’m the best, once I’ve accomplished X, Y, or Z, but then I kept working with these authors. I’ve worked with lots of New York Times, Wall Street Journal bestselling authors.

At one point, I was standing in the kitchen of this woman whose previous book had… you know, shot to the top of the New York times list. Number one was sold tons and tons of copies. And she was terrified to write the next book. And I’m like, what in the world? Like you, you accomplished, you’re the thing, you’re the writer, you, you did it.

And she’s like, yeah, but now I have to do that again. She’s like, with my first book, everybody expected it to fail. And so, you know, it wasn’t a bunch of pressure on it. And then it was this huge success. And now they want me to do it again. And now I want to do it again.

And so success actually will often cause more fear. And so learning to have to work through that fear. There’s this great TED talk from Elizabeth Gilbert, and she talks about how what it was like trying to write the book after Eat, Pray, Love. this book that had gone off and sold millions and millions of copies.

And she’s in her 40s realizing her most popular work is probably behind her. The odds of her ever writing anything again that is anywhere near as popular as Eat, Pray, Love is really small. And she’s like, this is one of those things that’ll get you to start drinking gin at nine in the morning.

And so she had to go through this process of like, how am I going to keep creating in the face of this fear. Um, so I think it’s something that you, you can learn to do, but it’s not something that’s ever, ever completely killed off.

Brittany: 36:55
Yeah. I think that’s so important for people to hear too, because you do think from the outside looking in that people who are a success is, yeah, they’ve, they’ve done it. They’ve made it. Maybe you have no idea the pressure that that’s on that person after that.

I know it’s something that I have experienced as a creator myself. There are some patterns that I released, gosh, four years ago now that are still to this day sort of like my number one patterns that people find me for. And in the back of your mind, you can’t help but think, man, I wish I could just create another one of those patterns, another thing that people flock to me for.

And sometimes you do it and sometimes you don’t. But I think the real measure of success is when you don’t quit or when you don’t give up. And that’s certainly something I just can’t do.

Tim: 37:52
And I mean, think about what you just said too, right? Because before those patterns took off, you’re probably like, man, if I could just get… people to pay attention to these things. You know, I’m creating these things. Nobody’s downloading them. Nobody’s paying attention.

Man, if I could just get somebody or like when you started putting them out, you’re like, man, if I could just get a hundred people to download these. Right. And then something hits and you get that dream. Right. So you’ve gotten the thing that you were wishing and hoping for.

And what meets you there is the same fear just about the fact that you’ll never be able to do that again.

Brittany: 38:29
Yeah.

Tim: 38:30
And so it’s this like, and that’s what is interesting to me is it’s one of these, like once you start understanding how it works, it’s almost like, you know, those, those movies about playing poker. And when they finally figure out the tell when the guy like pulls his ear, like, Oh, when he pulls his ear, he’s got a good hand.

You start seeing that with fear. Cause you’re like, well, well, two weeks ago I was afraid of nobody knowing I existed. And now I’m afraid because everybody knows I exist. Like, You know, OK, so you’re never going to leave me like you’re in the car with me on every journey forever.

My job is to manage you and keep you in the backseat where you can’t drive. And and just understanding. I mean, I really like the biggest thing is understanding if you’re afraid probably means you’re doing something right. It doesn’t mean you’re doing something wrong.

Brittany: 39:22
Yeah. And that brings up another point too. You mentioned earlier that we know that fear is a good sign that we’re doing the right thing, but you also said that, well, you probably don’t get nervous when you flip on the video camera anymore because I’ve been recording tutorials for five years and you’re right.

I don’t get nervous at all for that. So I feel like that’s something that a lot of us can relate to because if we’re designers, while we create constantly, maybe we’re afraid the first time we release a pattern, but as we get comfortable with that, then we don’t have that fear anymore.

But we know that fear is a good thing. So is there a good way for us to maybe shake up our routine so that we do feel a little bit of fear, that we do feel like we’re doing something different? Or in terms of creating What we create, you know, whether that be patterns, content, books or whatever, that we need to hone in on those skills and get comfortable with them.

Tim: 40:30
Yeah, the way I think about this is like, it’s like you get dropped into the middle of a forest and it’s pitch black. It’s the middle of the night. And it’s super scary, right? You hear things moving out there. It’s like the cartoons where you see the eyes blinking, you know, so there’s like stuff out there.

And so you start working to build a fire. And so the first thing you do is you kind of gather some leaves and little kindling together and it lights and you get it going. And then you keep like feeding bigger and bigger sticks into it until finally it’s this huge roaring campfire.

You’re warm. you can see you’re safe because all those animals and terrible things that you hear out there are afraid of fire. So they’re out in the darkness and there’s this nice, beautiful ring of safety. You’re comfortable, you’re warm.

And that’s what you create when you first start on this journey is like everything feels hard, everything feels fearful, and then something starts catching, right? And it starts working.

And so you keep doing that, you keep feeding that fire and you create this comfortable space, but I think, and there are some creators that stay there and just stoke that fire for decades.

You’ll see somebody that comes out with a book, it hits, it does really well, and so they just keep coming out with that same book over and over, you know what I mean, in different forms, or they keep just creating, and that’s fine, but I think most of us creatives, we like that feeling of, of stepping out into something new.

And so at some point we’re like warming our hands by the fire, we’re putting more fuel on the fire, but we start kind of like glancing over our shoulder and wondering if there’s a little bit of adventure out there in that darkness.

And so we end up walking to the edge of the light and taking that first step into the darkness. And this is why it’s always scary, no matter how long you’ve been doing it, is it’s still stepping into the darkness.

There could be a cliff there. There could be a dangerous animal there. You know, you don’t know yet.

And I think that, I think there’s times to be comfortable, right? Like after my business finally, you know, after years and years, like started making enough money and I started feeling comfortable, like I didn’t do anything.

I’m like, I’m just, I’m so exhausted from this run. that I’m going to sit here and just enjoy this. And it was like a year before I did anything new.

But eventually, I started having that pull. And that’s when I started thinking, I’ve always wanted to write fiction. I really want to step out and do this.

Now, a business coach would have been, hey, you’re crazy. Stick with this. Keep putting wood on that fire. That’s how you’re going to do it.

But there was something inside of me saying, no, it’s time for a new adventure. And what’s nice is I already have this warm fire.

Like I already know how to do something. I’ve been successful before. I did the hard work. I know I can do it now.

So this time when you step out into that darkness, it’s with a little bit more confidence. It’s like I haven’t done this before, but I’ve done something else and it’s successful. So I bet I can pull it off again.

And and I think that’s important. And I think but my what I found is it’s mostly just listening to what’s going on. You know, what what is your soul telling you?

You know, when it’s time to move, if you’re listening to yourself, you’ll know that. okay, it’s time to do something new.

And it doesn’t mean you completely give up on your old thing. It just means I’m going to start taking a little time and devoting it to this new thing that terrifies me and just start walking out into that darkness again.

Brittany: 44:14
Yeah, and that makes sense. I think that’s something that I have done as well too. I started with video because that was really where my passion laid. I love… video. I love editing, pretty much everything that goes into it. And so it felt very natural to dive into that. And I got comfortable with that.

And my next pull was about a podcast. And I thought, man, I’m getting so much out of listening to a podcast. There really isn’t anything in my niche that sort of does what feeds what I need. And so I was able to create that knowing that, well, this podcast thing is not really big in the fiber arts industry yet. I mean, it’s pretty big for knitters, not so much for crocheters. So there was a lot of unknowns, a lot of what-ifs that relate to that.

But there’s something to be said about sharing this perspective from somebody who has already—who’s already done that, sort of been there, done that, like you said, has already found success. Would you have the same advice for somebody who maybe has a big dream and they haven’t accomplished anything yet?

Tim: 45:31
I mean, I think the biggest thing is to get started and start the failure process. You know, about six, seven years into my journey, I was getting extremely frustrated. I had had some really big setbacks. This is all in the book. And so I won’t go too deep into it. You know, some really big setbacks.

And I just—I just reached a point where I was just super angry. And I got up in the morning and I was getting ready to go to work and I was just in a really bad mood. And my wife was like, my wife, Candace. She’s like, you know, what’s going on? You know, why? What’s going on? I’m like, I’m just really angry.

And she’s like, what are you so angry about? And I’m like, I’m just ready for this to be easier. Like, this is so hard. And I just—she’s like, what, you don’t, do you not want to like work anymore? I’m like, no, I don’t, I don’t mind working. I like going into work. I like what I do. I, it’s just so hard.

And around that time I came across this article from this guy named Jason Fried, who’d started this really successful software company called Basecamp. It used to be called 37 Signals, and I really liked him. I liked everything he’d written. I’d seen him talk, and he wrote this article about how he had recently started playing the drums and how it was the first time in a while that he had gone back to be a beginner at something.

And he talked about, then he kind of paralleled that, that when he started in business when he was 14 years old, so by the time he started Basecamp when he was in his mid to late 20s, he had over 10 years experience in business. And you see this number show up over and over, right? You see this in Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers. You see this in a lot of different places that it takes about 10 years to become world class at something.

And I realized, okay, I just have to keep going. Like it will get easier. Because you have to learn how to make mistakes. You have to make your own mistakes. You have to fall and get back up and fall and get back up and iterate and iterate and iterate until something finally starts catching. And that just takes a while.

And what I found is like, if you just start committing whatever time you can to it. And what I found, what I wish I could have done if I could go back is not put so much pressure on my creativity to provide an income for me and just give it time to grow. Because the things that I’ve been able to do that didn’t have pressure on it for income actually move more quicker towards income. It’s like this weird paradox.

But I think the biggest thing is accepting the fact that you suck at it. If you’re starting at something new, you’re going to suck for a while. If you start playing the piano, in six months, you have no expectations that you’re going to be a world-class piano player. But yet, if I’m trying to build a following on Instagram or I’m trying to start a new business and we aren’t successful in six months, we start to shame ourselves like something’s wrong.

But this stuff is a skill just like playing the piano is a skill. Learning this stuff is just long, hard, arduous work. And most of the time, what pains me the most is people fail not because they suck at something, not because they’re not good enough. It’s just because they stopped. They stopped before they finally reached that point.

And I think that’s the saddest—those are the saddest things that I see is like when I see somebody I haven’t seen in a long time and they were trying to do something and they just stopped. And so I think that’s the biggest thing. I think if—and that’s, again, why I wrote the book the way I did, is I wanted to show what it’s really like to run down a dream.

And it’s hard, and it’s long, and it’s also worth it. And I think that if you can stick with it and accept the fact that it’s going to be hard and long and arduous and all those things, but it will be worth it once you get there, it’s a lot easier to accept and understand that when you hit those low points.

It’s like, okay, I knew this was coming. This really sucks, but I’m going to keep going and I’m going to get through it. I really believe that the only way to truly fail is to stop. Everything else is just one more step towards where you’re going to end up going.

Brittany: 50:24
Yeah, and that is so true. It’s so beautifully put too, that it’s long, it’s messy, it’s—but it’s worth it. I love that. Always does. Like you said, with some time and refining and learning from your mistakes, I believe anybody has it in them to pursue exactly what they want to.

Tim: 51:03
Yeah, and I agree. And that’s the thing. And I think, you know, I have this kind of mystical view on some of this stuff. And I believe that the world in general—you can look out at the world and you can say, look at all this bad stuff going on and you can pick out your data points about the evil in the world or whatever.

But I feel like if you can kind of pan back a little bit, you’ll see that we as a species are moving towards good. We’re moving towards enlightenment or heaven or whatever you want to call it. And you can look at data points. A less percentage of our world population is hungry today than ever in the history of our species.

You can look at it as things like we don’t watch slaves get eaten by lions for fun anymore, like they did in Rome. So in general, we are moving in the right direction. Do we have setbacks? Do we have things that go wrong? Obviously. But we are moving in the right direction.

And I think it’s this kind of work that we’re talking about that moves us in the right direction. And I feel like everybody has their part to play in this. And there is no—you know, I can’t try to be Elon Musk or I can’t try to be you. I just have to be me. I just have to do the work that I’ve been given and trust that that’s my job.

And I look at it as there’s been this long chain of people behind me that’s moving everything a little bit better, making the world a little bit better of a place. And then there’s going to be this long chain ahead of me, right? I’m going to die before our species reaches enlightenment and we’re good. And there’s no more war and there’s no more sadness, right?

But that’s where we’re going. And it’s like I’m a little ant on this giant football field trying to just push my little piece of sand a little bit further. But that’s okay because there’s this whole chain of people coming behind me that are going to get it all the way.

And so I look at it as like on one hand, you look at the billions of people that have lived and my work is insignificant. I’m one tiny person putting together a few tiny books. What does it really matter? But then at the same time, that’s my job. Is to just move it a little bit further so the next person can come along and move it a little bit further and that’s what my work does.

And I don’t care whether you’re—I don’t care what you’re doing. I don’t care whether you’re creating funny videos for YouTube. I don’t care if you’re creating your blog. I don’t care, you know, if you’re just, you know, writing parody songs—like if that’s your work then do it and become the best at it and bring other people along.

And so that’s often what keeps me going when I want to give up because I could just stop and the world wouldn’t really notice. If I don’t come out with my novel, it’s not like the world is standing at my door saying, “Where’s your novel, Tim? I must read it.” So I could just stop and nobody would really know.

But it’s that thought that kind of keeps me going is like, this is my work. I’m here to do my work, and I want to die, as my friend Todd Henry says, his book Die Empty. When I’m done, I want to have said everything I had to say. And so that’s what keeps me going, even when we reach those dark nights of the soul and we want to stop.

Brittany: 54:50
Yeah. Wow, that’s a beautiful way to end. I feel so grateful to have had the opportunity to chat with you here and to have read your book. And more importantly, I feel so blessed to be able to share this message with the world and with my audience.

And like I said before, they’re a group of knitters and crocheters, and you were able to do something that’s rather difficult for most podcasts that have an audience of people who work as like their side hustle or maybe they’re entrepreneurs or solopreneurs.

And then we’ve got the other segment where they’re just hobby crocheters, just people who create. And you were able to do the difficult task of speaking to everybody as a whole and not just this topic is for those of you who just like to crochet and this topic is for those of you who have a business and it’ll motivate you to move forward.

You were able to help us all at the same time by addressing the fear that we all feel that we’re all going to continue to feel. So thank you. I am so appreciative.

Tim: 56:01
Well, thank you for having me. You know, I was curious when you invited me on, I’m like, well, I’m not sure what we’re going to talk about, but I’ll just answer the questions and see where we go. Yeah.

Brittany: 56:13
Well, I am so thrilled about how this turned out. I’m more excited than I… even realized I could be because it was just so good. I think it’s a great message.

But just for fun, because this is a crochet podcast, do you have any memories or stories about crochet? You said your wife has done it and she likes to do that. Do you have any stories?

Tim: 56:38
So when we were first having, when she was first pregnant with our first son, so he’s now almost 13. So this is a while ago.

She got invited to this group of knitters and crocheters. And, uh, so she started going and I ended up, you know, going and hanging out with some of the husbands some, and it became just this really like safe place because a lot of the women had small kids, a couple of the women I think were pregnant as well.

And so it’s just this really kind of safe place where she could ask her questions and it became the community for her that even though they were there because they crocheted and knitted it gave them a place to kind of have a community and help each other.

And those were the people that like brought us meals when our son was born and and so not to mention we like every weekend when we huddle under the blankets to watch a movie, we’re huddling under these giant blankets that she created.

So anyway, and I do know the difference between crochet and knitting, and I would never mix those up anymore because I know that’s a major no-no. But yeah, so yeah, that was a special time where it was like this group of women that became kind of a core group for her for a long time.

Brittany: 58:02
Yeah, that’s really cool. That’s what I love about this industry is the community is amazing. They’re so supportive. And like you were describing, all of those things, just willing to help and a safe space.

And that’s one of the reasons why… well, they say that you go for a hobby, we’ll say. It really was just something I wanted to try. I had some extra time on my hands, and I thought, oh, yeah, I’ll try knitting a blanket or something for my nephew.

But I stayed for the community, and it just constantly reminds me of just I’m in the right place.

Tim: 58:42
Yeah.

Brittany: 58:43
Very cool. Well, thank you so much again for your time today and for sharing your message and giving me the kick that I needed. So I very much appreciate that. And I’m sure my audience in the future will thank you as well.

Tim: 58:56
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Brittany: 58:58
All right, I hope you enjoyed that chat with Tim Grail, author of Running Down a Dream. It was such an amazing one, wasn’t it?

Now, if you loved this episode, I can guarantee that you’re going to love his book. So remember, check out Running Down a Dream. I’ll have it linked in the show notes page. You can check it out there, or if you just do a search for it on Amazon, it will come up. And trust me, it is well worth the time that you’ll spend reading it and the money that you’ll spend buying it.

All right, so if you have any questions about anything we chatted about today, you can find all of the information over on the show notes page, bhookedcrochet.com/session093.

I hope you take one step today to kicking fear in the face. It doesn’t matter what your dream is, if it’s hobby related, if it’s career related, if it’s related to your personal life. Fear is at play in every aspect of our lives.

And once we learn to identify it, that’s the first step to overcoming it. So kick fear in the face, my friend, and I will see you next week with another great episode, same time, same place. I’ll see you then. Bye for now.